Jack Stockwell Talking with Lyndon LaRouche
‘A Great Historical Irony'
May 15, 2023

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Stockwell: Good morning, sir.

LaRouche: Good morning.

Stockwell: Wie geht's?

LaRouche: Ah, not so bad, no so bad.

Stockwell: Good!

LaRouche: I'm busy. The world is in terrible shape, but that keeps me busy, and keeping busy keeps me happy.

Stockwell: Well, you're in Germany right now, and I have a question for you about that later on, but I was mentioning, the last couple of days, to my listening audience, that you would be my guest today, and of course, the hour following my program yesterday, was the anti-Stockwell, anti-LaRouche program--

LaRouche: Oh, yeah?

Stockwell: Well, yeah. The host that follows me would not be considered a supporter of your policies--although they don't discuss your policies. They never discuss your economics; they never discuss your policies; they never discuss your politics; they never discuss you answers, your ideas, your models, or your paradigm. What they talk about is, just smearing--name-calling and smearing. And so, I mean, it's a bunch of third-graders running around on the playground, because they didn't get on the right team.

LaRouche: [Laughs.] It sounds like mass, disorganized paranoia to me.

Stockwell: Well, it is. Because they're afraid. These people are genuinely afraid! They're scared to death! They're at the top of that first climb up the roller-coaster, and as they're ready to start coming down the other side, they notice there's track missing, and they're scared....

But, all of a sudden, we get this huge jump in the stock market yesterday. And people are just swinging back and forth, back and forth, they don't know where to turn, they don't have any clear alternatives, and so they're frightened.

LaRouche: Well, that's not necessary. The point is, people would have to give up their delusions, and decide on measures which will work, and we could get out of this mess. It wouldn't be a smooth, untroubled passage, but you know, if you survive, and you survive, particularly if the nation survives, and your posterity survives, safely, well, you say, “Look, it was a rough ride, but we made it.” And that's the way we have to look at this. We're going in for a very rough ride. But we can make it. We just have to be sensible, which means give up a lot of the delusions, like this so-called stock-market bubble. I mean, people are getting the same reports otherwise, even more of a trickle, but the IT sector, the so-called “New Economy” sector, is collapsing around the world. It's collapsing heavily, all the categories of physical economics and employment are collapsing--the bottom half of the Triple Curve (Figure 1)--it's collapsing at an accelerating rate. We are now actually in as much of a depression as in 1930, under Hoover. And it's a more dangerous depression, than Coolidge bequeathed to Hoover.

 Pure Fakery

Stockwell: Now, how do you measure that?

LaRouche: In terms of actual physical conditions of life and opportunities. For example: Most of the figures--all of the reports of a rebound in the U.S. economy--are deliberately and obviously faked! And all people have to do, is look carefully at the numbers, comparing, say, two or three quarters in a row, and look actually at the numbers, and look at the difference between the initial reports on a quarter, and the so-called final numbers. And if they look at these things carefully, and understand anything about economics, even rudimentary stuff, even rudimentary accounting stuff, they will realize that what the government is doing, and the reports of prosperity, are all pure fakery. They're lying, hysterically lying. New kinds of lies every week.

For example: Take the case of the so-called growth in income, which is not true. But, to the degree that people have income, in areas such as Long Island, New York City, the Greater Washington Area, for example, it's based on a real-estate bubble. Alan Greenspan, otherwise known as Dr. Greenspin, or Dr. Dreamspin, has faked the figures, working with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and others, and real-estate dealers, to push up the nominal value of housing, of real estate, simply based on the gossip among real-estate dealers. Then, the fellow who's got a mortgage out, who's short of money, cash, to pay the family bills, the credit-card debt, and so forth, goes to the bank, and the bank says, “Glad to see ya, buddy. We're ready to rewrite your mortgage. You wanna cash out of some of that capital gain you've got, because of the appreciation of your property?” The guy says, “Yes, I need the money.” “Okay, we'll give it to you.”

The money is being pumped, in a way where the banks bundle their mortgages, dump them on a market, typified by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac. The government then, through this channel, puts Federal Reserve money into the banks. So, the banks have lent money, but they've got it back to use. Now, they use it for another round of mortgages, or mortgage increases, as people cash out on their property ownings, as these real-estate values go up. Now, they're going up like 25-30%, per year, and people are living in these areas--people who are going bankrupt--are living on cashing out on purely paper, bubble values, in terms of the economy.

The same thing is happening on the stock market.

Stockwell: Nothing productive behind it. No increase in the tool sector, tool-and-die stuff; no increase in infrastructure; no increase in shipbuilding, highway manufacturing; no increase in health care, education, all this stuff--it's all on paper.

LaRouche: Yeah, but look out there, in, say, the Utah area, the Great American Desert area. Now look at the effect of the report of the Corps of Engineers, with other institutions, which, because it's a team institution report, on the state of dams in the United States. And you say, we have now come to a time when our government doesn't give a dam[n]; and the water system in the United States is in jeopardy.

Stockwell: Well, we just had reports this morning, of a dam in, oh, I don't know if it was Idaho, or northern Utah, that is leaking, and we had a report with the water master up there, and they were showing how the water is leaking out, way down underneath the dam, and it's a sizable dam. So, it's interesting you mentioned that, because the report came out this morning. Another dam, out here in the West, is leaking.

...On the Utah-Idaho border, we have the Bear Lake, a huge lake up there, fresh water, and the Bear River that flows south, and they were going to build this huge Bear River dam project, that would have provided a lot of irrigation water to southern Idaho, northern Utah. And the environmentalists came in and stopped it.

LaRouche: Yeah. Well, that's idiocy. I wish some of the energy of the well-known people around Salt Lake City would go more in the direction of dealing with these issues, and less blabbing nonsense about me. We might agree on some of this stuff.

Stockwell: You actually might agree on that one.

LaRouche: Yeah, there are a couple of things we may agree upon, you know. Like, human life is good, and things like that!

Stockwell: There's a lot of things they do agree with you on, because I hear it in the comments they make; I guess they just don't realize they're concepts that you teach.

LaRouche: They do. The higher levels do. But, the point is, remember that, in the post-war period, in particular, when--the Truman period, sometimes called the McCarthy period, when what was the internal-security apparatus of the Justice Department, which is now called, actually centered in the strange little organization called General Litigation and Legal Advisory Services, which runs the dirtiest things in the Justice Department against our people--people are looking for the police state: there it is for you, until Homeland Defense takes over, and the GLASH takes over the military, and then, you're all cooked in the dictatorship....

Stockwell: Yes.

LaRouche: But, because people in--like, you know, I don't know if he's still alive--but, the former FBI official--were in that, and they were very much into this so-called “anti-Communist--

Stockwell: You taking about Skousen?

LaRouche: Cleon Skousen?

Stockwell: Yeah, he's still alive.

The Military Utopians

LaRouche: Well anyway, he's an intelligent fellow, and he has some people around him who are very intelligent; they're not stupid on these questions, but they have an affinity with this apparatus, which is now close to the utopians, the military utopians, and therefore, that's where the issue is. They would be perfectly willing to adopt some of my practical ideas, under the imprimatur of a dictatorship, but, I don't think, under my government. It's that simple.

Things like, for example: You take the Western states, the so-called American Desert. Now, from Utah, itself, you had a Senator out there, a Democratic Senator [Frank Moss], some years ago, who boosted NAWAPA, the North American Water and Power Alliance (Figure 2). That general idea would work. Now, the only city-builder the United States has had in the 20th Century, really is Bugsy Siegel, in Las Vegas! There are no new cities, in areas which have great potential, for development, provided we have the water and power management to go with it. The failure to develop, under the Corps of Engineers, which is the way it should be done, or Corps of Engineers coordination, the national reserves, in terms of water and power development, that is, franchise the stuff out to utilities and so forth, but get it going.

We have a tremendous area for new forestation, for developing, turning the desert into an abundant area. There is no reason not to do it. The environmentalists don't know what they're doing. In a sense, they're insane. They may not all be insane in all matters. Some of them may be quite humane in some of their impulses. But, on this issue, they're idiots, because they're conditioned by people like Bertrand Russell, and other people from that background, into this myth, that somehow, the universe is fixed; it has no evolution in it. The planets never existed; the Sun is still out there spinning fast, and no planets around it--according to them. And therefore, we shouldn't change anything from the “natural.” The point of fact is, we can improve nature, and that's, if they read Genesis I, and look at the bottom line there, about God, man, and Creation--

Stockwell: And subduing the Earth--

LaRouche: Yeah. They're supposed to improve the planet! Why do they exist? Why did God create them? To do a job.

Stockwell: Ever since Roosevelt put in the Hoover Dam, down there in the Las Vegas area, and what that was able to do, and the power that that created for Southern California, and the development that that allowed in Southern California--well, the water that flows through Hoover Dam, could have been dammed up half-a-dozen places below that, and a dozen places above that, and so, let gravity do the same thing with that water, all the way down that river. The reservoirs, the irrigation: They could have turned Arizona, New Mexico, southern Utah, southern Nevada, into a paradise.

LaRouche: Yeah, I know. So, organized crime exploits Indians, in their gambling operations in the area, but they don't develop the land in which a lot of the Native Americans still live.

Stockwell: Well, what they want to do now, is dump all of their toxic-waste material on the Indian lands.

The Manchurian Candidate

LaRouche: Yeah, sure. That's John Irwin's friends, and McCain's friends. You know that's a very interesting story--the McCain story. You know, the President sometimes needs a psychiatrist, but John McCain needs an electrician.

Stockwell: Needs an electrician?

LaRouche: Yes, well, in place of a psychiatrist. He's got a few short circuits.

Stockwell: All right, I gotcha. Well, he's our true Manchurian Candidate. You think he's got a chance here, in a couple of years? Is he going to jump parties?

LaRouche: Well, he's going to run, probably, as a Bull Moose something-or-other. But he's very close to Lieberman. They have common connections. In the Democratic Party in Arizona, which is I think the main support of McCain's money, for his campaign. And also, through the New York crowd, and the Las Vegas and Hollywood crowd. This is where he gets his money from, his backing. It's the old Joe Bonano crowd, for example, cuts in there.

Stockwell: Well, McCain-Lieberman: Is that a possible ticket?

LaRouche: I think not. This world is now going through a crisis, in which most of the givens, in terms of news media impression of permanent, given trends, don't mean anything.

We just had a treaty again, which is not a treaty; an agreement at Reykjavik between the United States and Russia, NATO, on various things. The treaty between the United States, or the proposed treaty between the United States and Russia, on the question of nuclear weapons--

Stockwell: That's a farce, isn't it?

LaRouche: An absolute farce. And, what happened is, purely for cosmetic reasons--they want to maintain the presumption that there was an agreement when there was none, and because the President's advisers tell him he needs to have the impression of having great foreign-policy successes--so, they come up with these hoaxes, just like the so-called recovery program, which even Treasury Secretary O'Neill is raising questions about--you know, O'Neill raised this question about: We actually had a $500 billion loss, deficit, last year. We didn't balance the budget, and the United States is now going through a crisis, as is Europe, because Europe is operating on its own kind of balanced-budget arrangement, that is, Continental Europe, under the European Union, the United States put in the Balanced Budget Act as a compromise with Newt Gingrich. These things hamstring us now.

Now the Bush Administration, whose constituency is, in large part, the Gingrich constituency--like “Armey ants,” and “without DeLay,” you know, in Texas--these guys are now at the point that the United States is bankrupt; we're not balancing our budget; we can't balance our budget. The danger is that the economy, and the government, will go into a crisis because of the inability, without raising taxes rather significantly, to balance the budget. Their going to raid pensions; they're going to raid Social Security; and even that won't do the job. And you've got a similar situation in Europe, which is now being posed by France, President Chirac of France, who was just reelected, is now pushing for a revision of the so-called balanced-budget agreement, of the form they have it on Continental Europe. And it was actually Mitterrand, among others, who helped push it through--the former President of France.

So, there are great changes in progress, and more catastrophic ones coming down. Where nothing coming out of our government works, where nothing proposed by Joe Lieberman, or McCain, or other people can work. The American people are in a state of delusion, suspended only by the wishful delusion that there's not a depression. They don't have any evidence of a recovery, but they would like to have a recovery, and someone promises them that one is going on, and it's like the kid who wants candy, and you give him an empty box which you call a candybox: He's happy until he opens it.

But in this case, there is no recovery. When the economic issue, and other issues hit with full force, that are going to hit, we're going to have a shock. And as a result of those shocks, nothing that is essentially believed, will be believed anymore, any more than you believed in Hoover in 1933.

So, I think McCain hasn't got much of a shot....

Stockwell: Another criticism that I hear--again, people don't criticize your economics. They don't criticize the fact that you haven't missed yet in your predictions, economically, for America, over the last three decades, when you've come out and made a big one. But, some of the criticisms that I hear, one I heard yesterday, and I've heard this from a couple other people was: “Well, what's he doing in Germany? I mean, if he's running for President, he should be here in America, dealing with the American citizens, taking care of the American problems--why is he always over there in Germany all the time?”

LaRouche: I'm all over the place, not just in Germany.

Stockwell: That's my answer. I say he's all over the world.

LaRouche: Well, somebody has to take care of the foreign interests of the United States--well, certainly the government isn't doing it....

Controlled by an Oligarchy

Stockwell: You know, my show's two hours a day, and I spend an hour, to two hours a day scanning headlines around the world, reading what's going on to put my shows together, and I see your name appearing quite a bit around the planet--very little of it in the United States, but I see it everywhere else. And I see what's going on in the Middle East, and the ideas that you have presented for peace in the Middle East. I see it with the idea of a land-bridge, and what the Orient has to say about that; what Russia has had to say about you. British newspapers, American newspapers, however, have a different idea.

Why do you suppose it is, especially, here in America, Lyndon, that you get such a bad rap?

LaRouche: Well, look, the United States is controlled by an oligarchy. We have a constitutional form of government, which is on paper. The relics of that constitutional institution exist, but, more and more, especially over the course of the 20th Century, since the assassination of McKinley, and especially after the death of Roosevelt, this system, which was our system of self-government, has been undermined. The controlling interest is not a banking interest--a lot of people go after banks, but if you observe that banks are often bankrupted, and then the people who bankrupt them--who founded them and bankrupt them--come back and gobble them up again, at bargain prices.

In other words, you create a bank, you run it into bankruptcy, then you buy it back at auction at a bargain price, pennies on the dollar, and it's back in business again.

Stockwell: So, we're talking about a power that's more powerful than the banking interests.

LaRouche: Absolutely. Well, it's a combination. Look at the combination the way it's developed in the 20th Century, because that's been the century of disaster for us, except for the Roosevelt period--and Eisenhower was not entirely bad; he actually saved us from some things, or delayed some things that were bad, that would have happened earlier if he hadn't been there. But, the 20th Century: You had, with Teddy Roosevelt, and with Wilson after him--you had a takeover of the United States, which is typified in most people's knowledge, by the existence of the Federal Reserve system and the IRS, and also the FBI. The FBI was founded as the National Bureau of Investigation, as a political police force, Bonapartist French style, to exert political policing powers on behalf of the banking interests which were associated, in particular, with Teddy Roosevelt, and behind Wilson.

So, you had institutional changes in the United States, together with the earlier Grover Cleveland reforms, again a Democrat, this time, from New York, again, and they put in the Civil Service system. Now, the Civil Service system: Many people say it's an anti-corruption system. Actually, what it comes down to, is to create a permanent bureaucracy, which operates independently of elected government, which sits behind the scenes, and says, let government do as they choose; governments come and go; we are there permanently. We arrange things.

The permanent bureaucracy's most important elements from this standpoint, include the Justice Department and the Treasury Department. Through these agencies, a group in New York and Washington and Boston and elsewhere, pretty much controls the United States through channels. For example, you find people in the Treasury Department, or also, to some degree, the Justice Department. You have people who go into the Treasury Department as medium-level professionals. They go into there for a while, then they come out, and they go to work for an accounting firm or law firm. And because they've been sheep-dipped through the Treasury Department, they now have a certain kind of inside knowledge and connections, which means they make a lot of money. Then, after they've made some money, they go back into the Treasury Department, or over to the corresponding element in the Justice Department. They go in at a higher level now of influence. And each time they go in and out, they leave stay-behinds in, who are their protégés in the place, who are their contacts to manipulate the inside from the outside.

Then you get up to the center of the thing. The major combination of financial houses, major law firms that are tied to them, accounting firms, and control of the mass media, in areas like New York City, Boston, Washington, and so forth. So therefore, you have an oligarchy, like an old Venetian oligarchy--modelled actually on the Venetian oligarchy--in the United States, which sits like a power behind government, in some ways parallel or analogous to the British Privy Council network in the United Kingdom.

So, we have a “secret government” in the United States, which is, by no means, secret. We know it very well. We know these names, or we can know these names....

The Nashville Agrarians

Stockwell: ...We're talking here about the oligarchy. We're talking about this shadow, hidden government, that is not subject to elections every two or four or six years. That they're a well-entrenched bureaucracy that takes care of itself, and that, they pretty well have control of our internal and external policies of this country.

Now, are we talking about things on the level of Kissinger and Brzezinski and Wolfowitz and Armitage, or are we talking about something higher than that?

LaRouche: Something higher. Look, for example, take the case of William Yandell Elliott, professor at Harvard University, professor of government, who spawned a whole group of these clones, including Brzezinski, Huntington, Kissinger, and many others. You will find these guys all over government. They are the Leporellos of--Don Giovanni's Leporellos--but who is Don Giovanni? It's not William Yandell Elliott. William Yandell Elliott is a key figure of an organization called the Nashville Agrarians. The Nashville Agrarians were founded officially in 1927-28, by a group of grandchildren of the founders of the Ku Klux Klan, in Nashville, Tennessee, associated with Vanderbilt University, down there. They have exerted a great influence in our country. Today, they control a great number of the thunder-style Protestant fundamentalists, who are not, in my view, many, often not really Christians; and they also control the right-wing, pro-fascist Catholics of the Buckley style. The two groups are, essentially, politically, one and the same thing. They march under slightly different colors, but they march to the same tune, in terms of the end result.

So, he created this. These things are things which we've had in our country since--well, Jonathan Edwards, who made a mess of the Connecticut River Valley, the grandfather of Aaron Burr, for example, was one of the first religious nuts of his type, with his thunder programs, as it would be called later by the Nashville Agrarians. So these guys were tied to H.G. Wells and company in England. They were, in large degree, followers of the existentialist philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche, the founder of fascism. Most of them are fascists, as was William Yandell Elliott, in a sense.

The whole idea was to destroy the United States, and to establish an English-speaking union, by unifying the United States and the British Empire as one power to run the world like a Roman Empire. They hate the United States. For example, Kissinger, in his book, his Harvard dissertation, and again, in a speech he gave in London, in 1982, in May of 1982, at Chatham House, said that he was an opponent of the United States. He's an opponent of the American Intellectual Tradition. He's a follower of the philosophy of Hobbes. That he opposed Roosevelt and supported Churchill. That's the general mentality.

For example, take the case of John J. McCloy. John McCloy came from a relatively poor family...

Stockwell: In the Justice Department.

LaRouche: Oh, he was everything. He was the guy that ran the Warren Commission investigation.

Stockwell: Okay. Right.

LaRouche: He became a significant figure. He is actually part of the key thing in the environmentalist movement. This was started as the nuclear disarmament, peace negotiation, back in the 1980s. He was the High Commissioner for Germany. He was a key banker, as well as political official of the New York financial community, tied to the law firms as well as the banks. He was the one who selected Willy Brandt, and made him the Chancellor of Germany, for example. He's the one that helped overthrow the Erhardt government in Germany, for example.

So, these kinds of guys, who are against the American Intellectual Tradition, against the constitutional tradition, have the goal of eliminating the U.S. Constitution, in fact, and establishing a kind of Roman Empire, an English-speaking Roman Empire.

Now, what's made them hot-to-trot, lately, is the fall of the Soviet Union, convinced them that they were now in a position to establish a Roman Empire-style of world government, not instantly, but in a process unfolding over a decade or two. Globalization is a reflection of this.

At the same time, they know, that if you have an educated population employed as a producer society--that is, farmers, skilled farmers, technologically-oriented farmers, skilled workmen, high-technology industries, scientific and technological progress--then you have an intelligent population, which must be well-educated. You can not enslave a well-educated, intelligent population of a producer society. They will not take it. They will not put up with it.

If you, however, dumb them down, as has been done to the United States, since the middle of the 1960s, with the post-industrial society, the shift from a producer society to a consumer society, you can turn our people into superstitious people, foolish people, who can be easily manipulated by mass media. By mass entertainment, of the type we have now. Mass television, for example. Mass entertainment makes Roman sodomy look almost human, with what's going on now. Video games, which are turning our children into killers. The German estimate is 170,000 children and teenagers in Germany are potential killers, just like the guy who shot up the school in Erfurt. Just like the people here, who shot up the Columbine school.

The ‘Open Conspiracy'

Stockwell: ...McCloy was a principal character in this. Who else might we look to as having a hand to play in it?

LaRouche: Well, you have a lot of them, all over the world. H.G. Wells is much more important. Bertrand Russell is much more important. For example, the military policy of the United States today, is largely a product of the influence of H.G. Wells and Bertrand Russell, who, beginning with Wells's report--remember Wells, in 1913, going into World War I, was the foreign propaganda chief for British Intelligence. In 1913, he wrote a book--it was a fictional book, but he wrote a preface to it. In the preface, he proposed that, after his study of the reports given by Frederick Soddy, who was a Canadian-based, very successful nuclear chemist, who worked with [Ernest] Rutherford, proposed that radium weapons, or nuclear weapons, of the radium type, he meant at that time, based on Soddy's analysis, could be developed, and could be used as weapons of war.

Wells's proposal was that we could make a weapon so terrible, that governments would give up their sovereignty to world government, in order to avoid wars in which nuclear weapons were used. And from that point on, Wells was always on that track: of world government, a Fabian idea of world government, through the aid of the use of nuclear weapons.

In 1928, Wells wrote a book, called The Open Conspiracy, in which he summarized his philosophy. This book was immediately adopted, publicly, by Bertrand Russell. And from that point on, Bertrand Russell and Wells collaborated, until the death of Wells, on this project.

Now, it was through this process, that the nuclear-weapons program of the United States was initiated, to get a nuclear weapon in place, and they intended to use it first on Germany [at the end of World War II]. But, when Germany surrendered before the bomb was ready, dropped it on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, just to use it, in order to establish the idea of the threat of nuclear weapons. From that time on, with the firing of MacArthur, and until they could get rid of Eisenhower, who resisted this kind of military policy--

Stockwell: Well, he warned us about the military-industrial complex.

LaRouche: He didn't say it plainly enough. He said--what he said was true, and it was important. And he had fought against these guys. But the minute he was out of office, Allen Dulles immediately launched the Bay of Pigs, and some other operations, and you had waves of terrorism, assassinations around the world, including attacks on de Gaulle; the ouster of Macmillan in England, by a scandal; the attempt to oust, early pushing-out of Adenauer in Germany; the assassination of Mattei in Italy; and the assassination of Kennedy. Which all came out of this ferment, which was set into motion by this Bertrand Russell crowd. And if you want to get the read on it, you just go back to 1946, to the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, in which Russell lays out clearly what his policies are. And these policies are the policies, and it's Russell's apparatus inside the United States, through MIT, and through other institutions, through leading foundations, like the Rand Corporation, and so forth--that these institutions are all Russellite formations.

Now, a professional military man, from a senior rank, probably retired, would say, “Yes. These are what we attacked as the utopians.” They believed that they could create a utopia, through the use of nuclear weapons to establish an English-speaking world government, like a Roman Empire, and that we would police these with Roman Legions, who would be out there conducting perpetual warfare, on the borders of the empire, and killing off people, exterminating people, who they found disagreeable within the empire, just like the old Roman Legions.

This is the policy which is expressed by the War on Terrorism right now. This is the policy behind what happened on Sept. 11. There are people inside our government, at a high level--not all of them--but there are people who are determined, along with those who are supporting Sharon and Netanyahu, who are committed to establishing, now, a world military dictatorship.

For example, we have an issue right now in the United States, a key one, called Homeland Defense.

Stockwell: ...Again, both in the social, political, economic orders, the disintegration of what was America, and its amalgamation into this great what they plan to be a utopian whole, that I suppose is supposed to be the answer to the world's problems, is that not it?

LaRouche: No, it's the answer to the threat represented by the American Revolution. The American Revolution represented a break, following the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, the revival of the effort to create sovereign nation-state republics on this planet, as a replacement for the imperial kinds of systems or feudal systems which kept most of humanity in the reduced capacity of human cattle.

Crossing the Rubicon

Stockwell: And there are those in the higher levels, then, of this bureaucracy that really runs the country, who want to see a return to that. They don't--

LaRouche: Yeah, to understand it, you look back to Rome, you look at this issue of Homeland Defense as a good example of how this works. Just take briefly this synopsis: Rome. Remember now, these days, in modern times, history moves more rapidly than it did in ancient times, such as Roman times. What took several centuries to unfold in Roman times, may unfold in 50 years or less in our time. Because history has speeded up, because of technological progress, and density of population, and so forth.

So, go back to that. In the Second Punic War, about 200 B.C., that period, when Rome had conquered Syracuse and southern Italy, had defeated the Carthaginians, was moving on to take on occupied Greece--from that point on, Rome underwent a certain accelerating moral degeneration around the institution of slavery. That is, Rome went from being a producer country, that is, Italy, to being a consumer society which lived on what it was able to extract from subjugated, colonialized or semi-colonialized surrounding areas.

Stockwell: Slave states--

LaRouche: Yeah. Which were essentially the result of--the Roman Legions, were the instrument engaged in perpetual war to enforce this. Now what happened, is this led to an unfolding over a period of about a century and a half, up to Julius Caesar and his successor Augustus, you had a period of strife in Rome, quarrels among the military forces in Rome, from the two centuries before Christ. And in this period, the civil wars. But during the period, there was a law, that the Roman Legions could never get close to the city of Rome itself, for fear that they would make a military coup.

Stockwell: Posse comitatus.

LaRouche: Yeah. Exactly. So, this was called the crossing the Rubicon. The River Rubicon was the limit to which the Roman Legions were supposed to approach Rome as a city.

Now, today, with Homeland Defense, we've crossed the Rubicon. Now, what's the analogy? Once Caesar, Julius Caesar, crossed the Rubicon, the intensity of the civil wars increased to the point that Caesar became a dictator, and set up a new system. Then there were civil wars within the civil war, which led ultimately to Augustus' deal with the priests of Mithra and Capri, and this resulted in the defeat of Anthony and Cleopatra, and established the Roman Empire.

Now from that point on, Rome went through a degeneration of about three centuries, until it virtually ceased to exist. Now, what we're doing now is, when they come up with Homeland Defense, which means really putting the U.S. military under control of the Department of Justice, you have now crossed the Rubicon.

Stockwell: Is that what this Northern Command is about?

LaRouche: Absolutely.

Stockwell: So now you have an amalgamation forming of Canadians, Mexicans, American military, that will be stationed here, over the Rubicon, they've come south of the Rubicon now--

LaRouche: Of Washington, D.C., the Potomac.

Stockwell: All right, they've crossed the Potomac.

LaRouche: Exactly. It's like having the military cross the Potomac.

Stockwell: And the right series, or the right set of provocations, of which I think Sept. 11 was supposed to be it, but another Sept. 11, and the Presidential directives are there--

LaRouche: And the President becomes then merely a figurehead.

The Empire Is Doomed

Stockwell: Yeah, exactly. And then this shadow government that has been taking over everything since the assassination of Kennedy, and of course prior, since the death of Roosevelt, and McCloy had been in there since before Kennedy obviously, until he died--but Richards and a few others that are in the Justice Department have been in there for decades--and things are being set up now to essentially, with the right set of provocations, reverse what happened July 4, 1776.

LaRouche: The difference is now, that the Empire is being set up at the time that the Empire is doomed. That's the great historical irony. This whole system is tied up integrally with the world monetary-financial system.

Stockwell: Which is collapsing.

LaRouche: Right. The monetary-financial system can not probably live out the year. It might struggle along in some form for another year or so.

Stockwell: Well, they've got to pump it up past the November elections.

LaRouche: They can't. They can not. There are certain physical limits which can not be crossed. You can, within the physical limits, you can do those things. We're now approaching the limits. We are at the stretching point, the breaking point in stretching credulity. People, because they wish to, will believe in the recovery. That's about over. The first major pop--the real-estate bubble pop, for example, or the chain-reaction effect of a collapse of Japan.

You have, coming out of Argentina, out of the stupidity of the U.S. government in Argentina, absolutely stupid. The stupidity of the IMF on Argentina--absolutely stupid. You are collapsing an economy; when you collapse Argentina, what do you do? The United States and others used Spain as a key instrument for looting South America. So Spain was given certain privileges, looting privileges, in South America. This included, largely, the water management control, this included power--electricity. So now, Argentina collapses. A chain-reaction collapse of the interests of Spain which had invested in that part of South America, has now caused a crisis of the Banco Bilbao and Santander in Spain and the electrical industry of Spain. This causes a chain-reaction effect upon all Europe, the European Union, as a result of the Spanish collapse, which is ongoing. This reflects itself in Chirac, in France, who says he's got to break the European Union agreements on deficit of countries.

So, the chain-reaction effects are now building up. Mexico--it doesn't work. There's no way in which the demands of Bush, which have been refused by the Mexican government, by the Mexican Congress, will work. They can't. The Bush government has no comprehension whatsoever of how an economy works, and yet they're pushing madly for their so-called reforms or changes, which can not work, but will only make things worse. They're like the man who's trying to put out a fire with gasoline, with cold gasoline. This is what they're doing. There is a limit. 

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