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This is the transcript of a Jeff Rense interview with Lyndon LaRouche. The interview was broadcast on February 27, 2023 and March 2, 2023. A Real Media audio archive of this show is available at https://www.rense.com/. Jeff Rense: ... (picks up in mid-sentence) respect and honor that I think really are reserved for the highest-level American politicians. You have a very unique position. LaRouche: Well, actually among some American politicians, these circles, also, what you have is noisy characters in the DNC, for example... Rense: Noisy characters, I like that. LaRouche: They don't really represent anything, except Lieberman and Gore. But the real Democrats, as well as some of the real Republicans, are very concerned with these issues of economy, the war, and so forth. But you just don't get the play in the U.S. press. I would say that generally the U.S. mass media, both the entertainment media and the so-called news media, is far worse in the United States, than any part of Europe, even in the British Isles. Rense: I just had an e-mail from a friend who lives in Switzerland, saying much the same thing. That it is shocking, the difference. Americans would be just slack-jawed with amazement at how much they are in the dark over here. LaRouche: This is really -- we're sort of under the rule of Goebbels, Joseph Goebbels, in terms of ... and Heinrich Himmler, in terms of Justice Department, and new media, mass news media. It's only around the corners that you get some leakage of truth. Rense: Last night, you were an honored guest at a -- as I mentioned before you joined us -- at a very unusual location, at the Kuwaiti Embassy in Washington. A celebration, attended also by Donald Rumsfeld. What an evening that must have been! Tell us about it. LaRouche: Oh, it was just a lot of fun. I was treated cordially by the Ambassador and his wife, and received very kindly. And I mixed with the crowd, especially with people who know me, and who wanted an opportunity just to shake hands, and exchange a few words. And a few Americans as well. So we had a generally useful time. It last for about an hour and three quarters, before it began to break up, as these things do, and then I was on my way to sleepy-land. A very nice event. A very pleasing event. Rumsfeld--A Flying Object Without Wings Rense: And Mr. Rumsfeld came up and shook your hand, and said, "How are you, Lyndon?"? LaRouche: No, he did not. Rumsfeld was a flying object, without wings, that somehow winged in, and winged out, without wings. And I manage to avoid him. I didn't think there was any profit in our exchanges. I missed a couple of other people, but there were a lot of old friends, and some very good people there, and it was a good opportunity to Rense: Lyndon, what was Rumsfeld's energy like? Did he come in with a coterie of security, and sort of whisk around the room? LaRouche: Well, I came in as one of the featured guests of the Embassy, and shortly after I had entered, and gone through this, received by the Ambassador and his wife, and the military coterie around him, they took me downstairs. Then shortly after that, Rumsfeld came in. Well, I went to the other end of this... it was at the Willard Hotel; I went to the other end of the premises, where I ran into people that knew me; we were talking. In the meantime, I was advised by someone with me, Rumsfeld is in here. (laughs) I made no effort to go over and shake his hand. Didn't seem... Rense: Yes, we understand how that might happen. Everybody knows that certainly hundreds of thousands of military men and women, from the United States, and the UK, are over there, poised now, ready to invade. Time is running out. The clock is ticking. It will start to get warm there in a few weeks. The Kuwaitis aren't exactly allowed to enter, I am told, the northern half of their country right now. They're sort of screened out of it, where all these staging bases are located. What were the Kuwaitis doing inviting you to a big function last night, like that? It's unusual... LaRouche: Well, if you look at the international Arab press, and some other, that over the past couple of years, I've become a regular celebrity throughout much of the Islamic world, and elsewhere. That there is not a week that passes, that much of that press, in various parts of the world, does not feature something by me, on me, etc. LaRouche--"A Very High Profile Internationally" Rense: Well, that underscores the point I tried to make earlier. You have a very high profile internationally. LaRouche: And also, our friends in India, there's attention to me regularly in China, in Russia, and many parts of Europe. Rense: Does that irk the State Department at all? Have you had any people squabbling about that? LaRouche: (laughs) Well, some people in the State Department. You know, Bolton and Wurmser, for example, these are really two foul balls, who are fairly high ranking in the State Department, and they and their friends don't like me at all. But look, you know the United States is divided in terms of the things that cut into the Presidency, both from the private sector, and from institutions of government. And in these circles, we have a lot of friends. The actual number of, shall I say, punks, who are pushing this war projects, is actually a limited number of people, whose background is associations with organized crime! So, (laughs) they're thugs, and thugs, and they're also mostly draft dodgers. During his time, of course, Rumsfeld did serve as a pilot, but I say now he's flying without wings. Rense: I get it now. Okay. LaRouche: So, we call them the Chickenhawks, because they're draft-dodgers who want war. But it's a limited number of people. They're fanatics, they're vicious, they're tied to organized crime. They don't represent the United States. The majority of people in the United States don't want this war. Europe doesn't want it. The world doesn't want. The British are about to overthrow their government, the Blair government, over -- he's made himself extremely unpopular in the United Kingdom, not only in the Labor Party, his own party, but also among Conservatives, and among senior military figures. Rense: His party is in open revolt, basically right now. He's had to backtrack, and at least start talking diplomatically again, rather than like some kind of a poodle on the leash, as he's called sometime. LaRouche: He may be dumped, you know. I don't that he will be. But all the factors are there, where all the experts agree this guy is ready for the chopping block. Rense: God, it sure sounds like it. All right, now you've been to France and Germany lately. Their position, vis-a-vis no war, or at least extended inspections, came as no surprise to you. It did seem to catch a lot of Americans off guard. There were some editorials about how dare France and Germany take this position, after we saved their bacon in two world wars, and on and on. Give us a perspective from France and Germany, if you will. Let's talk about France first, Lyndon. LaRouche: Well, they all go together, because the thing happened as a joint effort. Despite the fact that the Premier in Italy, Prime Minister Berlusconi, is nominally tied to Bush, he's also under U.S. blackmail, which may explain his ties. I mean, there's legal blackmail against him, of the type that was run against Andreotti, a former prime minister of Italy. Rense: Just as quick aside, it is suggested by some now, that blackmail and such have never been at higher profiles, and more thorough, in and out of government here, not only in this country, but elsewhere. Stand by, would you please, Lyndon? We have to pause for just a moment. We'll come right back with Democratic Presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche, in a just a couple of minutes.... [commercial break] From A Producer, To A Consumer Society Rense: ... few other candidates can boast about. You mentioned thugs and punks, having certainly taken over the Executive Branch, at least, of this government. Would you, where do we draw the line between a usurpation of the Constitution, or a, hate to use the term "coup," but it's kind of close. How do you term it? How do you ... LaRouche: It is close to a coup. It's this crowd. Remember, we've undergone a change in our economy, our political structure, and other things, over the past period, since about 1964, and in the economy, especially since 1971, since August of 1971. Now, in this period, the character of the country, its social, economic character, has changed. We used to be the world's leading producer society. We were the most productive per capita of any nation in the world. That was something which Roosevelt restored us to, and enhanced. But then, about the middle of the 1960s, we underwent a cultural change, sometimes called a cultural paradigm shift. As a result of this, and of what happened under Nixon, in 1971, we became a consumer society, rather than a producer society. We began living on the rest of the world. We covered up how bad we were becoming, by sheer fakery in our statistical operations. And so forth. And so therefore the lower 80 percent of our family income brackets, have essentially been discarded. They've been thrown to the wolves. Rense: Right, they're gone. LaRouche: And so, you have the politics of both the Democratic and Republican party today, are dominated, on the one hand, by what Nixon and company called the Southern Strategy, which is an orientation toward the pro-Confederacy tendencies in the Old South. Whereas the similar thing developed about 1981 around the Democratic party, especially around someone who had an organized crime background, who took over control of much of the party, through the Democratic Leadership Council. And so therefore, you have the parties, the two major parties, are dominated, in terms of their party organization, not necessarily in the Congress, but in the party organization, they're dominated by people who came from backgrounds which we used to say, arise from rackets, to respectability, ... from riches to respectability, and I would say despicability. And these types have taken over control of much influence in our economy, because of the collapse of industry, the collapse of private entrepreneurship and other things, which previously determined the political character of our country. Rense: And right along with that, of course, is the collapse, and degradation, of what used to be a remarkably strong moral society. LaRouche: Yeah. Well, when you believe in a productive society, you have a sense of identity that you're doing something, as a person, which is useful, for society. Rense: Worthy. Correct, yeah. LaRouche: Either as a productive operator, or farmer, or industrial operative. Rense: Well, you have a sense of worth, societal worth. Right. Let me jump to another corollary here. You mentioned the shift to a consuming society. We all know that happened. It was a rather quick process, when you look at the totality of the history of this nation. Was that a natural progression, Lyn? LaRouche: No. Rense: ... of a nation that became fat and sassy, and began just to gorge on its own largesse, or was it more than that, and was it manipulated, to a large degree, by some of these people , who are very smart? LaRouche: Yeah, it was. It was actually an orchestrated change. It was already in process in, well, from the time Roosevelt, the 1944 Democratic convention, where Truman was brought in. Which was the beginning of a shift. Now, at that time, as some people know, the United States had gone through an experience, under Roosevelt, where the people of the country were pro-Roosevelt, and you couldn't dump the Roosevelt legacy so quickly. But steps in that direction, began about that time. In the 1960s, that change became effective, as the Baby Boomer generation came toward maturity. Rense: And, what role did the removal of John Kennedy play in that shift? LaRouche: Well, that was part of it. Because Kennedy was essentially committed, in his orientation, toward the idea of the Roosevelt tradition. I don't think at the beginning he had a clear understanding of that, but as we see, step by step, as he was in the Presidency, he showed more and more of a comprehension of what the Roosevelt tradition meant in practice. It was necessary, on some people's part, to get rid of him. He was in the way. They were moving in the direction we've now seen. We went into the war in Vietnam, which was totally unnecessary, unjustified. Rense: It was a lie, is what it was. LaRouche: Well, it changed the whole character of the country. It drove our youth, who were just coming into adulthood, that generation, drove many of them into despair, and disorientation. And it made possible a cultural paradigm shift, in the way people chose their identity. They talked about production is bad, farmers are bad, production is bad, let's have this consumer society model, a post-industrial society. And that moral change... it came in a couple of steps. Rense: Let's pause on that note. We have a little bit of time, here, and let me remind you all that Lyndon LaRouche is running for President. He is a Democratic candidate. You can support him. I urge you to find out more about Lyndon. He is a remarkable man, and just listening to him in this first half an hour, I think if you pay attention to what you're hearing, and compare and contrast that to perhaps the current occupant of the White House, you'll see a vast gulf in terms of perspective, concepts, certainly knowledge, and wisdom. Okay, we're going to pause, and come right back in just a couple minutes, with part two of our conversation tonight, with Lyndon LaRouche. So, stay tuned... [commercial break] The USA Does not Pay Its Bribes Rense: Lyndon, I mentioned that we have a government here, which certainly can be characterized as having usurped much of the Constitutional process, and the basic rights upon which we depend, to be a viable and functioning nation. Maybe the way to phrase what happened here, in terms of economics, is a very hostile corporate takeover of some kind. How do the Europeans view the current White House Administration? LaRouche: Well, they're looking at us as become an arrogant, imperial entity, which is ruling the world, largely by military power, not by economic power any more. As a matter of fact... Rense: Well, if you bribe everyone who won't come along with us, that's obvious. LaRouche: But we don't have the money to pay the bribes any more. Rense: Well, that's not going to slow anybody in Washington down. LaRouche: They're going to keep trying to bribe, whether they have... and they won't pay. That's also a part of this spectrum. People, the world has discovered, the United States does not pay its bribes. Rense: The checks will bounce. okay? LaRouche: What do you expect? We are bankrupt, you know. Rense: We are, indeed. LaRouche: So, but the way the Europeans, for example, look at things increasingly, is in terms of economic crisis. In the United States, the Administration and the mass media are doing everything possible to try to pretend there is no financial crisis. The financial crisis is actually here, already. We're in a collapse. But the mass media... Rense: By the way, I want to give you credit, Lyndon, because you were the first person to really go public with this years ago, in the political arena, and you made it quite clear, there was no equivocation at all, we were headed toward where we are now. And I want to commend you for that. LaRouche: Well, I didn't cause it, I just forecast it. (laughs) So, the Europeans know that they... Now, take the case of the United Kingdom. The people in the United Kingdom know that the world economy is collapsing, that is, relevant people. They know the idea of the war that George Bush has been talked into, is idiocy. That's what they think, and that's what they say, when they're privileged to speak frankly. They consider the United States a pack of idiots, for being involved in this thing. They also, at the same time, from the standpoint of national interest, the United Kingdom people, most of them, realize they're in a deep economic crisis. They know that the only way to deal with that crisis, is to maintain cooperation with Western continental Europe, and with Eastern nations, such as Russia, and China, and so forth. So, therefore, they want to be there. They don't want to be with the United States, cut off from Eurasia. In the case of other parts of the world, as, say, Turkey, Turkey wants to join the European Union. It does not want to be a part of some broken-down country, on the edge of an American imperium. Therefore, they're very reluctant to accept the blackmail, which is coming from the United States. And that's what's characteristic. China, India, Southeast Asia, Korea, Japan, other countries, realize that the United States is on a suicidal, stupid course, and they don't wish to be part of it. They do wish to maintain proper relations with the United States, but they're not buying into the economic policy, or the strategic policies. They know they're stupid. And, we can go to war -- the President can order us to go to war at any time -- we've got enough in the Middle East, at least to raise a lot of hell.... Rense: What about that old notion, that Congress has to declare war? LaRouche: Oh, well, that's... Senator Byrd is right on that. This is totally unconstitutional, what's going on. But, who's challenging it? Rense: Right. Well, those men and women in Washington, most of them check their spines at their door, when they go to work everyday. LaRouche: Well, some of them don't, but some of them, they don't know what they can do. See, I come in on this one, because someone has to say what others may be not thinking yet, but would think, and will agree with, as to what's going on. And therefore, around the institutions of government, who all have to function as institutions of government, or function in their relationship to institutions of government, they have to be kind of discreet in the way they approach. In I step. I say, plainly, what's going on, and they're happy that I say it, not them. (laughs) Rense: All right, well. Just so it gets said. LaRouche: That's exactly. And I enjoy it. It gives me a sense of a function in life, for the nation, as well as for some other purposes. Rense: You are, in a way, a spokesman for the conscience of this nation, at the level that most of the men and women in Washington will not assume, and operate from. LaRouche: Well, I think I dealt with in many reports, of what kind of character you have to develop, to deal with this kind of responsibility. I enjoy it, personally. Rense: Well, I can tell you do. Let me go back to Europe here, as this drama continues to unfold. Russia, of course, France and Germany, making noises that they don't approve. China does not approve. They want more inspection time. They don't want war. I have, for months, been toying with the concept that, as the Russians did in Yugoslavia and Bosnia, they took the airport at Pristina, with an advanced cadre of elite troops. Would it surprise you, Lyndon, or is it completely off the wall, to think that maybe somebody over there, will send in some troops, into Baghdad, just a couple of hundred, or Basra, and say, "No war. Inspection." LaRouche: Well, there is some interesting talk going on, including a very important fellow, a Russian, Primakov, who was formerly foreign minister, prime minister, and so forth, at various point. Very clever. Rense: Yeah, he just made a trip to Baghdad. LaRouche: See, what we're going, a lot of us around the world, and I'm sort of in the middle of this, we realize that the President has gotten himself into a situation that, on reflection, he would not like to have. He realizes that he's been wing-dinged by his Vice-President, Dick Cheney, who is the central figure in this fanatical war drive, inside the Administration. He probably wants to get out of it. But because of his personality, because of his sense of politics, he senses that he cannot back out of it. That he would look bad, if he backed out. Particularly after sending all these troops to the Middle East. So, he wants out. Rense: Cowboys don't wimp out. LaRouche: Well, so what our problem is, since he's the sitting President, one of the problems on my plate, which I discuss with other people, who independently have the same problem on their plate, how do we define a package, where the President of the United States, George Bush, can back out, of a war in the Middle East, even at this late stage? And we're constantly... and the Russians are helping us. Rense: Okay, very good. Let's pause on that note. Come right back and take that thread up, with Lyndon LaRouche, in just a couple minutes. .. - [commercial break] - Rense: Jeff Rense, with Lyndon LaRouche. We're talking about Russia, and perhaps some surprise in the works, or maybe a door opening to allow George Bush, somehow a quasi-graceful exit from this stage of conflict and death, which has been erected all around us. Okay, Lyn, go ahead. Orient To Reality -- LaRouche: Well, for example, you've got on the borders of Iran, and on Pakistan, Afghanistan, you've got an area of no-man's lands, which are really nets of terrorists. And some people are talking about taking those out. That is, they really are not nationals of any country, they're a no-man's land. And taking them out, because they're part of the terrorist operation. That's one of the proposals that's floating around. My view is, that, simply, that to get the economic issues on the table, publicly, and to make it clear, that that is the problem, not the so-called Iraq problem, or something like that. And to get the country on reality. My view is that if the American people are oriented toward reality, and think that their government is actually considering, seriously, the reality of this ongoing financial crisis, that they may, you may get a political change shift, which enables the President to find ways of gracefully getting out of this crazy war. Rense: All right, let me go back to my original thesis, and that is, would it surprise you, that the Russians, or the Germans, or the French, but most probably the Russians, who, I think, would be the most likely to assume this profile, were to drop in, airlift, whatever, a few hundred troops, and say, "We're going to work with the United Nations inspectors, and help them do their job. We don't want any conflict at this time, and this is how we see it." LaRouche: I don't think... They wouldn't do it as a surprise, at this point. I mean, there might be conditions under which that would happen, but I don't see that at the present. What I would see is, that anything that the Russians do, they would, in a sense, before acting, in such a manner, they would coordinate with the United States, and diplomatically, to get agreement on it. They would, however, put great pressure on the United States, to accept such an agreement, such a way of getting out of this mess. Rense: Okay, now, you are one of the few politicians who has courage, and the intellectual honesty to tell it like it is. With the passing, Lyndon, of almost each and every week now, it's becoming more and more obvious to me, and I think most of our listeners, that an outside political engine, has manipulated itself skillfully, some might say brilliantly, into the heart of the Executive Branch of the U.S. government, and is influencing, some would say dictating, American foreign policy. The term we most commonly hear to describe this mechanism, is Zionism. It's a complex, geopolitical machine, of course, that has a multiplicity of facets. There are Jewish Zionists, there are Christian Zionists, and there are agnostic, and even, I would assume, atheist Zionists. The whole issue, I think, was brought forward recently, with this U.S. Air Force report -- I'm not sure if you've seen it yet -- it's featured at the top of my home page. It's a top level document, a very lengthy report, on the history of Israel's nuclear weapons program, and it states -- and this is U.S. Air Force terminology now -- clearly and unequivocally, that Israeli thermonuclear muscle has been, and continues to be, a serious lever used to control American policy. Some call that blackmail. Some call it influence, but whatever you call it, it is not a healthy situation among alleged friends. How do you see this? LaRouche: Well, that statement is fair. What the problem is, it goes deeper, however. The problem did not come from Israel. The problem came from a bunch of wise guys, who thought that they could use Israel to play that part. Now, you saw that, in part, when Eisenhower intervened in the 1950s, to rebuke the British and French, who had, with Israel, conspired to pull off this attack on Egypt. But later on -- that was done under the Labor government, in Israel. But later on, Israel was taken over largely by an explicitly fascist regime, that is, the Likud, which was founded by the famous fascist, Vladimir Zev Jabotinsky, and Sharon, and Netanyahu, and similar people, reflect that. Rense: Instant wise guys. LaRouche: Well, wise guys, literally. In the United States, what does that mean? That means the crowd, in Canada and the United States, who are notorious as being the guys who moved from, during the period of World War I to the present, from rackets, to riches, to so-called respectability. The so-called Billionaires Club, names like Bronfman, names like Lansky, or his crowd, such as Michael Steinhardt. And internationally today, Marc Rich, the big Russian mafia boss, who is actually the influence which operated behind Al Gore, and which also operates through Cheney, through Lewis Libby, Cheney's key advisor, and also financially, through Marc Rich's relationship to the Halliburton Corporation, and things like that. So, what you have is, you have an international cabal, in which the forces behind Cheney, are more typical than the Israelis. But you also have a fascist gang, in Israel, the followers of Jabotinsky, typified by Sharon, or Netanyahu, or Shamir earlier. These guys are real thugs. They are used by, and financed by a New York-centered crowd, of names such as Bronfman, names such as the Lansky -- big names of Lansky, Lauder, and so forth. They are actually the funders of Israel and the present policy. They have also influence inside the United States, in the financial community, largely as a result of a breakdown of industry, and the takeover by financial speculators. And they're a part of it. Rense: ... left the door wide open, didn't it? LaRouche: That's right. So, during this period .. What happened, though, that Israel is not the cause of the problem. Israel has become an instrument of the problem, and its nuclear power is an important instrument of the problem. Rense: So these wise guys, are at the control of a lot of nuclear warheads... LaRouche: Not quite, next to it. Next to control. They are again a front. Israel itself is like a hand grenade. It's being thrown at the Islamic world. Now, when a hand grenade hits its target, it does not survive. [break in audio] Rense: Many Jews write to me, good friends, some are columnists and so forth, they're enraged at what has happened to Israel. LaRouche: Absolutely, and so am I. But the key thing here, is, who's behind it? It's actually an old guy by the name of Bertrand Russell, now long dead. Rense: Oh, yeah. LaRouche: Bertrand Russell was the key figure, together with H.G. Wells, in forming an Anglo-American faction, which became known as the Utopians. Their policy was to use the terror of nuclear weapons, to induce governments to give up their sovereignty, for the sake of the kind of world government, for which Wells and Russell were committed. That faction became very important in the formation of the Air Force, as an organization, in the United States. The Rand Corporation gang. These guys are the hard core of the nuclear fanatics, who are carrying out Russell's policy today. They have used, taken over and used, the role of gangsters, names such as Bronfman. For example, McCain is, McCain's money, family money, comes through a Bronfman conduit, into Arizona. And Joe Lieberman is totally a rightwing fanatic, controlled by gangster money, including the Cuban, tail end of Florida there, the Cuban right-wingers. And also tied to Michael Steinhardt, and tied to crazies like the Buckley family. So, these are the guys. This is the kind of structure, of fanatics who've had minority, but have occupied key positions in the nuclear warfare section of our intelligence establishment, and from there, they are using things like the gangster tradition, of Bronfman, and Lansky, and so forth, with Israel, and Israel's weapons, as a key factor in trying to bring the world to its knees, around this idea of a Clash of Civilizations war against Islam. That's where we're stuck. Once we know that, and understood that, and understand what the Democratic National Committee is, in terms of the control of that, through the Democratic Leadership Council, which is actually controlled by gangster influences -- these are my enemies inside the Democratic Party, they are gangsters. Rense: There's the real coup d'etat. LaRouche: That's right. Well, also in the Republican Party, But it's in the Administration. It's in the Democratic Party. Al Gore would have gone to war, quicker than George Bush. Because he's a part of this operation, on the inside. Rense: It's so important to keep this mind, all of you listening. That according to many people, including my guest, Lyndon LaRouche, Israel was highjacked. It was coopted, taken over long ago, and is being misused and abused, by people who do not have our best interests at heart. LaRouche: Yes, that's exactly what is happening. People get so sucked into the facts about the Israeli involvement, that they don't look behind that, to say, who is really the puppet master, and who is the puppet? Rense: The issue of nuclear weapons, in the hands, or next to the hands, of these people, and that Air Force report, which spells out clearly that Israeli nuclear, thermonuclear muscle, has been used to dictate control, influence, and otherwise impinge upon American free will and foreign policy, is a very, very serious issue. LaRouche: This is something that's being exposed now. We're exposing it, on the basis of this mini-nuclear weapons policy. Now, remember, these things came, for those who think that somehow Sept. 11 was the genesis of these developments, it was not. These policies were launched by Secretary of Defense Cheney, during the first Bush Administration. These policies on nuclear weapons, mini-nukes, first use of nuclear weapons, and so forth, were developed by Cheney. The present policy of Israel, the present policy toward the Middle East, was developed by Cheney, during his term, the latter years of his term, as Defense Secretary. The whole crowd in the Administration, which is pushing this, are Cheney's crowd. So this is the genesis of this thing, and when we recognize that, then we become decoupled from brainwashing. Rense: Very important. Lyndon, thank you for being here tonight. I wish you every success, in spreading the truth, and your information, not only here, but around the world. Thank you very much. - 30 -
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